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Manson "Family" Murders Discuss the murders of Sharon Tate - Polanski, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Steven Parent, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca commited by Charles Manson's "family" members on a two night killing spree in August of 1969.

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Old 08-12-2005, 02:09 PM
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Default The Murder of Sharon Tate

I recently read a theory that Sharon Tate's and Jay Sebring's bodies were moved to the outside front porch and back inside again. The theorist attempts to substantiate this by blood types found and supposedly in large enough to pool amounts. Frykowski, type B; Folger, type B; Tate, type OM; Sebring type OMN. If Tate's and Sebring's bodies were carried outside after the murders and laid on the porch surface--where the pools of their blood type supposedly were, being wet and sticky with blood, wouldn't there be debris (dirt, insects, etc.) from the outside front porch floor surface on the bodies? Nowhere is this mentioned in any of the numerous books I have read on this crime including the original homicide report. After all, it is where people wipe their feet and walk. There were bushes and mulch in that area also. Even the best maid can't keep an entrance area-that is outside--totally clean. A body, wet and sticky with blood, would have been a magnet for any debris--even minute--being on the floor area of an outside front entrance way. Debris would have attached even to Sebring's clothes. How about their hair? It would have also contained some debris. According to the blood map area in and around the front entrance, it all seemed to be type O blood. Where is Frykowski's (type B) blood referenced in these blood map areas in large amounts? If Frykowski's blood was initially mistyped ( and that's very possible), it would explain the Sebring/Tate blood trail to the porch area, blood on the steamer trunks, etc. While we are on this subject, do you believe Garretson(the caretaker) heard/saw anything? I do. He had to because the dogs would have responded to the shots or screams since we know they responded with a "people bark" moments before Steve parent left the guest house. My theory is with Garretson picking up the phone and finding the line dead--knowing it just worked for Steve Parent, he headed towards the main house since their lights were still on to see if their line worked. That's when he either saw or heard something that made him retrieve to the guest house quickly with lights out and dogs quiet. Being scared, he probably tried to stay awake all night in hiding. At some point in the quietness, he dozed with the dogs. The next thing he knew the police were coming through his door. It was morning.
Any Manson murder crime buffs care to respond?
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Old 08-12-2005, 02:55 PM
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Interesting, I haven't heard that one. I do find it highly unlikely though, one because of the debris you mentioned, two because there would have been no real reason to move them back in if they were already out (correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Frykowski & Folger left outside where they died), three because of the scene inside with the rope and pillow case and four because of the description that the Susan Atkins gave (I think she was the one who actually took credit for Sharon's actual death, forgive me it's been awhile since I brushed up on the details.) At any rate whoever the girl was, she talked about Sharon's final minutes begging for her baby's life, etc. etc. in detail and never mentioned Sharon being outside and I have trouble thinking that is the one detail she held back.
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Old 08-14-2005, 06:05 PM
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Blood Map Depicting Where Each Victim's Blood Was Discovered



This Blood Trail Supports A Confession That The "Family" Returned To The Scene A Couple Of Hours After The Murders, And At That Time Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring's Bodies Were Moved To The Porch And Then Back Inside... Their Intention Had Been To 'Hang Two Of The Bodies On The Front Porch But It Was Beginning To Turn Daylight So They Decided To Split.'
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Old 08-14-2005, 06:19 PM
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I heard about it or read about it somewhere recently. It was in an interview before they aired version 2 of Helter Skelter.
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Old 08-15-2005, 11:44 AM
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I saw the recent interview with the caretaker. He did hear noises and screams. He only spoke out about this recently, as he had been too frightened to do so in the beginning, I suppose. I'm sure he knew a lot more than he admitted to. I read about the confession detailing Manson and one of the "familys" return to Cielo drive and their intent to hang Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring on the front porch. The unidentifird glases found on the premises were reportedly planted there by Manson to throw off investigators.
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Old 08-15-2005, 12:29 PM
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Wasnt this interview on A&E earlier in the summer? I caught an interview with the caretaker but he never admitte going to the main house that night. He did say he heard noises but thought it was just another party.
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Old 08-21-2005, 07:30 AM
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I am not sure if it was AE or Ctv but it was a fairly long segment.
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Old 08-22-2005, 11:28 PM
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What I heard regarding this is that Manson made claims that he and some of his followers returned to Cielo Drive later that night. Their intention was to hang the bodies of Sharon and Jay from the porch. His story is that they were carried out, but finding nothing to use for support, the bodies were returned to the living room. They were then placed into what was the positions they were found in. The reason Manson gives for returning was "to see what my children had done" and he claims to have tried to wipe surfaces of fingerprints. I had read this account somewhere, but cannot remember where now. Knowing what I do of the case, and I have followed it since the beginning, I think he probably DID go back. After all, he said he wanted murders that would shock the world, what more shocking scenario than the one he had planned? This would account for the blood from both Jay Sebring and Sharon Tate being on the front porch, although any description of the murders does not have either of them on the porch at any time.
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Old 08-28-2005, 09:13 PM
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Default Whether the bodies were moved....

This story seems to vary depending on what book you read. In Greg Kings, Sharon Tate And The Manson Murders, he makes mention of Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring's blood types being found on the front porch. I think he insinuated that the bodies were moved, but I don't know if anyone has ever proven this.

Vincent Bugliosi, the chief prosecutor in the case, never made mention of it in Helter Skelter. That is a very detailed book, and it seems like he would have mentioned it if it were fact.

In Manson In His Own Words by Nuel Emmons, Manson claims that he did indeed return to the house on Cielo the next morning after the murders with another family member named Clem. He admits to leaving the glasses as a clue to throw the police off, but not to moving their bodies. Of course, Manson isn't exactly someone I would take for his word

I have always thought the blood on the porch was there due to Sadie, Tex and Patricia probably tracking it from the crime scene on their shoes. Sadie described Sharon's death that she fell to the floor in front of the couch while dying from being stabbed. If you look at the crime scene photos that is exactly where she is. I would think if their bodies were moved, the towel also wouldn't still be on Jay Sebring's head. Sadie claims after she wrote PIG on the front door in Sharon Tate's blood that she threw the towel into the living room and it landed on Jay's head.
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Old 08-28-2005, 09:24 PM
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Default The Murder of Sharon Tate

I agree with everyones' theory...Manson can't be trusted to tell the truth, and there are many unanswered questions about this case. I guess the fact that we still debate it 36 years later shows it truly was the crime of the century. Pamebabby
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Old 08-31-2005, 07:52 PM
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Default We're Thinking Alike On This Case

Hello Tia30!

We can go and on and on and on, etc. on this case. The buck MUST stop with all these theories of the bodies being moved from the inside to the outside and back inside again. The fact that no debris from the outside came back inside on the bodies proves those bodies remained in the living room after death. You can even see the outline of blood around the body. Fits like a jigsaw puzzle. Elementary my dear Watson! Elementary indeed Holmes! Got a match! What say you, Tia30? wilcuf@aol.com
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:04 AM
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Default The bodies being moved

I agree with you. I never considered the debris aspect.
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:51 PM
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It's been a very long time since I read HelterSkelter, and I never did much followup after that, but it surprises me that this other book mentions that Manson siad he returned the next day. Hasn't he always proclaimed that he was completely innocent of all this? Or was it just of the actual act of murder that he seemed to think would exonerate him?


Who's glasses were they that he said he planted, by the way?
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:18 PM
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I'm not usually out hawking books, but if you haven't read the book by Greg King: "Sharon Tate And The Manson Murders," you should. It is interesting and quite detailed; focusing more on Sharon Tate and aspects of her own life, of course, but there were many things that had previously remained undisclosed, that I was surprised to read, and were "new" to me.
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pook
It's been a very long time since I read HelterSkelter, and I never did much followup after that, but it surprises me that this other book mentions that Manson siad he returned the next day. Hasn't he always proclaimed that he was completely innocent of all this? Or was it just of the actual act of murder that he seemed to think would exonerate him?


Who's glasses were they that he said he planted, by the way?

In his book, Manson states he knew they were going to committ murder to try and get Bobby B. out of jail, but he denies ordering them to kill. He also, of course wasn't present during the murders so he claims he is innocent via that too.

The glasses were just some that were at the ranch. Manson just planted them there to confuse the police. They could have been anyone's as it was said Manson would order members to hand over their glasses when they joined the "Family."
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