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Manson "Family" Murders Discuss the murders of Sharon Tate - Polanski, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Steven Parent, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca commited by Charles Manson's "family" members on a two night killing spree in August of 1969.

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  #1  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:20 PM
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Default Jay Sebring's violent attack!

Jay Sebring's violent attack


I have read two different versions of Tex Watkins attack on Jay Sebring!

Version1.

Tex Watkins shoots Jay Sebring in the lung and when Jay falls Watkins violently kicks Jay in the face breaking his nose and eye socket
with his moccasins!
Then Tex Watkins leaves Jay unconscious and verbly attacks the other victims about wanting their money. One of the victims
asks Tex what he is going to do with them, Tex replies "you are all going to die, I am the Devil!" the untouched victims cry and plead for him not
to hurt them.
Just before Tex Watkins tells Sadie to kill Voyteck, Tex Watkins jumps on top of Jay and viciously stabs Jay in the back
about 3 or 4 times deep!

Version 2:

Tex Watkins shoots Jay Sebring in the lung and when Jay falls Watkins violently kicks Jay in the face breaking his nose and eye socket with his cowboy boots, Abigail and Sharon scream!
Tex Watkins then gripes about wanting their money. When Jay becomes conscious and begins to crawl forward Tex Watkins
stabs Jay in the back 3 times and continues to kick Jay in the face. It is about then that Voyteck rocks back and forth trying to
untie his hands when Tex Watkins orders Sadie to kill Voyteck.

Which version in your opinion is correct?
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  #2  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:46 PM
Zen900 Zen900 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyP
Jay Sebring's violent attack


I have read two different versions of Tex Watkins attack on Jay Sebring!

Version1.

Tex Watkins shoots Jay Sebring in the lung and when Jay falls Watkins violently kicks Jay in the face breaking his nose and eye socket
with his moccasins!
Then Tex Watkins leaves Jay unconscious and verbly attacks the other victims about wanting their money. One of the victims
asks Tex what he is going to do with them, Tex replies "you are all going to die, I am the Devil!" the untouched victims cry and plead for him not
to hurt them.
Just before Tex Watkins tells Sadie to kill Voyteck, Tex Watkins jumps on top of Jay and viciously stabs Jay in the back
about 3 or 4 times deep!

Version 2:

Tex Watkins shoots Jay Sebring in the lung and when Jay falls Watkins violently kicks Jay in the face breaking his nose and eye socket with his cowboy boots, Abigail and Sharon scream!
Tex Watkins then gripes about wanting their money. When Jay becomes conscious and begins to crawl forward Tex Watkins
stabs Jay in the back 3 times and continues to kick Jay in the face. It is about then that Voyteck rocks back and forth trying to
untie his hands when Tex Watkins orders Sadie to kill Voyteck.

Which version in your opinion is correct?

The 1st version is closest except the moccasins. Jay never crawled after taking the 1st shot. Tex finished Jay off with bayo but Jay may have been dead. Tex hurt his foot kicking Jay. Tex was limping when he got out the car at Spahns.
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen900
The 1st version is closest except the moccasins. Jay never crawled after taking the 1st shot. Tex finished Jay off with bayo but Jay may have been dead. Tex hurt his foot kicking Jay. Tex was limping when he got out the car at Spahns.

Also, to break a man's nose with moccasins would be kinda hard.
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Old 03-27-2011, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen900
The 1st version is closest except the moccasins. Jay never crawled after taking the 1st shot. Tex finished Jay off with bayo but Jay may have been dead. Tex hurt his foot kicking Jay. Tex was limping when he got out the car at Spahns.

I believe the moccasin story is in THE FAMILY book.
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Old 03-27-2011, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doober
Also, to break a man's nose with moccasins would be kinda hard.

If you have ever seen the Jay Sebring autopsy report Jays face is a horrible
mess. Probably boots.
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:02 AM
Zen900 Zen900 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyP
I believe the moccasin story is in THE FAMILY book.

My memory fades but now that you mention that I think I remember one of the killers wore moccasins. Sadie was barefoot. She's the only one I remember for sure. Tex didn't need to stabb Jay with the bayo. Jay was a goner. The bullet to the lung did the same thing a bat would do. Jay couldn't have breathed in enough oxygen to crawl. His lungs were destroyed by the bullet.
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen900
My memory fades but now that you mention that I think I remember one of the killers wore moccasins. Sadie was barefoot. She's the only one I remember for sure. Tex didn't need to stabb Jay with the bayo. Jay was a goner. The bullet to the lung did the same thing a bat would do. Jay couldn't have breathed in enough oxygen to crawl. His lungs were destroyed by the bullet.

There is another version that happened when all hell broke loose.
Tex was outside attacking Voyteck while Sharon and Gibby and Jay were
struggling to get the rope off their necks. And Pat Krenwinkle supposedly
was fighting with the two women?

I wonder if this happened?
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyP
There is another version that happened when all hell broke loose.
Tex was outside attacking Voyteck while Sharon and Gibby and Jay were
struggling to get the rope off their necks. And Pat Krenwinkle supposedly
was fighting with the two women?

I wonder if this happened?

Gib made abreak towards the pool door in Sharon's room. Katie came after her and stopped her at the doors. Gib almost got the best of her until she made it out the door. Tex then finished the job once Katie got her on the ground

While Sadie and Tex and Katie and Linda were all outside,...just what the hell was Sharon doin? There was a back door right by the bar
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doober
Gib made abreak towards the pool door in Sharon's room. Katie came after her and stopped her at the doors. Gib almost got the best of her until she made it out the door. Tex then finished the job once Katie got her on the ground

While Sadie and Tex and Katie and Linda were all outside,...just what the hell was Sharon doin? There was a back door right by the bar

You would think Sharon would have hid or did something to save herself and her baby? She probably was in total shock and
couldn't think straight. Sadie mentioned that when she was attacking Voyteck
she could hear Sharons sobs.
Just the thought of what happened makes me cringe! I wonder what was going through the victims minds when they were all called into the living room and saw all these people probably looking weird with their weapons in hand?
Like WTF?
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen900
The 1st version is closest except the moccasins. Jay never crawled after taking the 1st shot. Tex finished Jay off with bayo but Jay may have been dead. Tex hurt his foot kicking Jay. Tex was limping when he got out the car at Spahns.

I always got the impression that Voytek stayed quiet until he saw Tex Watkins
stab Jay Sebring in the back viciously. If I'm not mistaken it was that act that
act that caused Voytek to want to get up and run!

What do you guys think?
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doober
Gib made abreak towards the pool door in Sharon's room. Katie came after her and stopped her at the doors. Gib almost got the best of her until she made it out the door. Tex then finished the job once Katie got her on the ground

While Sadie and Tex and Katie and Linda were all outside,...just what the hell was Sharon doin? There was a back door right by the bar

Doesn't it seem to you that the victims had no idea of how to behave violently in order to defend themselves?
They were too civilized to help themselves?

Voteck could have snapped Sadies neck. Gibby could have taken Krenwinkle
yet they ran instead of fight?
Gibby even told Tex to "take her"? No kicking or going down with a fight.
Like lambs to slaughter.
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Old 03-31-2011, 06:39 PM
Zen900 Zen900 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyP
Doesn't it seem to you that the victims had no idea of how to behave violently in order to defend themselves?
They were too civilized to help themselves?

Voteck could have snapped Sadies neck. Gibby could have taken Krenwinkle
yet they ran instead of fight?
Gibby even told Tex to "take her"? No kicking or going down with a fight.
Like lambs to slaughter.

The girls had Buck knives which is a sturdy hunting knife made to skin leather off a full grown deer. Tex had a large bayonette and a gun. Gibby was already bleeding to death when she told Tex that she was finished so just go ahead and hurry up and get it over with.

Sharon ran at one point(while the killers were in the front yard) and was caught in the house by one of the girls and brought back.

Frykowski fought viciously with Sadie even injuring her head but she was inflicting stabs on him. When he gained the upper hand Sadie screamed for Tex's help. Then it was two against one.
Tex, Sadie and Pat all left the Tate home bruised and injured. Killing was hard work they found.

Jay charged an armed man 8" taller than himself.

Were it not for the gun I think it's possible at least one victim may have been able to survive. The house was situated against a clift and above a clift so the victims were cornered. Parent would have driven through the gate if not shot 4 times. Tex couldn't stop him with just a bayo.

There was a battle inside that house. That is what Charlie saw when he went back- a battlefield strewn with corpses.
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:51 PM
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Agreed.

The timing could have varied by ignaseconds, however.

If Sadie and Tex were on Voyteck at the front door and Katie was chasing Gib through the hall, then Sharon would have at least some distance for a few moments from the killers.

I don't believe Sadie continued her attack on VF outside so she would be left by the door, even if for a few moments. Enough to take a couple of steps and try and make it out the back door.

With all that killing going on around her, I wonder if she was too paralyzed to move or comprehend basic instinct of survival.

Agreed too, had they not had the gun, I think it woulda been a whole new ball game.

It probably woulda been a whole new ball game had the gun misfired on Jay. Someone points a gun at you and it misfires, rage takes over.

I know this from personal expirience (believe it or not). Back in 84, I was asleep on the couch in my apartment. Some friends were over. As I dozed,...(because we were all pretty hungover from the night before)....some kid pulled out an empty .45 and put in in my face and pulled the trigger. It just went "click". I woke up and saw the barrel of a gun in my face. In two seconds flat, I had knocked his head into a wall and threw him down a flight of steps.

You just don't do crap like that and expect no reaction.

....never did speak to the the dude again,....his name was Todd....he was a heavy set dude who drove a purple Thunderbird with side pipes.

,....(ahhh,...happy days,...happy days,....)
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen900
The girls had Buck knives which is a sturdy hunting knife made to skin leather off a full grown deer. Tex had a large bayonette and a gun. Gibby was already bleeding to death when she told Tex that she was finished so just go ahead and hurry up and get it over with.

Sharon ran at one point(while the killers were in the front yard) and was caught in the house by one of the girls and brought back.

Frykowski fought viciously with Sadie even injuring her head but she was inflicting stabs on him. When he gained the upper hand Sadie screamed for Tex's help. Then it was two against one.
Tex, Sadie and Pat all left the Tate home bruised and injured. Killing was hard work they found.

Jay charged an armed man 8" taller than himself.

Were it not for the gun I think it's possible at least one victim may have been able to survive. The house was situated against a clift and above a clift so the victims were cornered. Parent would have driven through the gate if not shot 4 times. Tex couldn't stop him with just a bayo.

There was a battle inside that house. That is what Charlie saw when he went back- a battlefield strewn with corpses.

I didn't know Tex had a bayonet? I thought he had sort of a buck knife?
Tex's attack on Gibby is before she was even injured, Patricia screamed for help and Tex came in the house and at Gibby with
the knife when I read that Gibby said "Ok Take me" or something similar?
And that is when Tex stabbed Gibby and her intestine came out.
I believe Tex also hit Gibby in the head or face with the gun?At that point Gibby fell to the floor. Tex heard Voyteck scream for help and Tex went running out of the front door to finish off Voyteck. Then Gibby got up and ran to Sharon's room holding her stomach wound and out the door.
(Bill Garretson didn't hear all THAT?) Even Doris said how could Bill Garretson not hear all that commotion!


I didn't know Sharon ran! I do know she was all alone for a short time.
Sharon Tate was so comfortable just a short time before in bed talking to
her friend Jay not knowing what was to come! Damn! So unbelievable!
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doober
Agreed.

The timing could have varied by ignaseconds, however.

If Sadie and Tex were on Voyteck at the front door and Katie was chasing Gib through the hall, then Sharon would have at least some distance for a few moments from the killers.

I don't believe Sadie continued her attack on VF outside so she would be left by the door, even if for a few moments. Enough to take a couple of steps and try and make it out the back door.

With all that killing going on around her, I wonder if she was too paralyzed to move or comprehend basic instinct of survival.

Agreed too, had they not had the gun, I think it woulda been a whole new ball game.

It probably woulda been a whole new ball game had the gun misfired on Jay. Someone points a gun at you and it misfires, rage takes over.

I know this from personal expirience (believe it or not). Back in 84, I was asleep on the couch in my apartment. Some friends were over. As I dozed,...(because we were all pretty hungover from the night before)....some kid pulled out an empty .45 and put in in my face and pulled the trigger. It just went "click". I woke up and saw the barrel of a gun in my face. In two seconds flat, I had knocked his head into a wall and threw him down a flight of steps.

You just don't do crap like that and expect no reaction.

....never did speak to the the dude again,....his name was Todd....he was a heavy set dude who drove a purple Thunderbird with side pipes.

,....(ahhh,...happy days,...happy days,....)

That is so damn stupid! How many people are killed that way! You are lucky to be alive doober! I would have been outraged had that happened to me!
Some idiot did that to my husband at work. I'm the one that raised hell after I found out about it. Some people are so damn stupid!
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