Evidence of intruders

[Justthefacts]

Byn: It's certainly possible that the Clark girl was the 19 year old he was giving driving lessons to in 1970. I know most of the real names of the women he slept with during his marriage to Colette and the last name Clark doesn't ring a bell. Did you notice that MacDonald AGAIN goes into some detail about the amount of Eskatrol he had in his home? So, the first thing he mentions in his personal diary was his ingestion of Eskatrol and he also felt the need to document his use of this drug in his, "CID notes."

JTF.

[byn63]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

Byn: It's certainly possible that the Clark girl was the 19 year old he was giving driving lessons to in 1970. I know most of the real names of the women he slept with during his marriage to Colette and the last name Clark doesn't ring a bell. Did you notice that MacDonald AGAIN goes into some detail about the amount of Eskatrol he had in his home? So, the first thing he mentions in his personal diary was his ingestion of Eskatrol and he also felt the need to document his use of this drug in his, "CID notes."

JTF.

JTF: Yes, I too noticed the importance Inmate placed on the Eskatrol he ingested and he had in his home. I find it laughable, that these days he claims it was of NO IMPORTANCE. If that were true then why is it at the top of the list in his notes??????

The last name Clark didn't ring a bell with me either, and then I remembered that I'd never heard a name in association with his "driver's ed" student. Also, I am not sure if a name were ever given for the 16 year old (or thereabouts) he drove across country with..........Do you know? Is there any proof that he had intimate relations (to use one of Inmate's terms) with either of these girls? Or, was it more likely a case of he wanted but was left empty?

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by byn63

JTF: Yes, I too noticed the importance Inmate placed on the Eskatrol he ingested and he had in his home. I find it laughable, that these days he claims it was of NO IMPORTANCE. If that were true then why is it at the top of the list in his notes??????

The last name Clark didn't ring a bell with me either, and then I remembered that I'd never heard a name in association with his "driver's ed" student. Also, I am not sure if a name were ever given for the 16 year old (or thereabouts) he drove across country with..........Do you know? Is there any proof that he had intimate relations (to use one of Inmate's terms) with either of these girls? Or, was it more likely a case of he wanted but was left empty?

Byn, I vaguely remember the name 'Carla' connected with the girl to whom MacD gave driving lessons.

There exist conflicting versions about the cross country trip MacD took with the 16-year-old girl. I read somewhere (in FJ or in some defense report on Christina's site) that MacD did not make this trip with the girl alone, but that her parents accompanied her.
It would interest me very much if this is true. Maybe JTF knows more about it.

I have no doubt that in case MacDonald went alone with the girl, that they had sexual relations during that trip. But I always found it strange that parents would allow her sixteen-year-old daughter to go on such a trip alone with a 27-year-old man.

[Justthefacts]

Byn/Rashomon: Joe McGinniss didn't use the real names of any of MacDonald's conquests. Carla is the name he created for the 19 year old and common sense dictates that MacDonald did have an intimate relationship with this woman. How do I know this? First of all, I'm a guy, and the following scenario is classic guy stuff. There were a few occasions where Ron Harrison visited MacDonald and MacDonald told him that he needed to give driving lessons to a neighborhood girl. MacDonald added that this would take 45 minutes, so he encouraged Harrison to relax and have a beer until he got back. Driving lessons, wink, wink. In terms of the facts surrounding the cross-country trip with the 16 year old girl, it is true that her parents were with them. That doesn't mean that MacDonald couldn't have had sex with this girl, but he certainly wasn't the only adult present when this excursion took place.

Justthefacts.

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

Byn/Rashomon: Joe McGinniss didn't use the real names of any of MacDonald's conquests. Carla is the name he created for the 19 year old and common sense dictates that MacDonald did have an intimate relationship with this woman. How do I know this? First of all, I'm a guy, and the following scenario is classic guy stuff. There were a few occasions where Ron Harrison visited MacDonald and MacDonald told him that he needed to give driving lessons to a neighborhood girl. MacDonald added that this would take 45 minutes, so he encouraged Harrison to relax and have a beer until he got back. Driving lessons, wink, wink. In terms of the facts surrounding the cross-country trip with the 16 year old girl, it is true that her parents were with them. That doesn't mean that MacDonald couldn't have had sex with this girl, but he certainly wasn't the only adult present when this excursion took place.

Justthefacts.

Byn/JTF (thanks for the info about the 16-year-old girl's parents being present):
I too think it possible that MacD would have found opportunity to have sexual relations with the 16-year-old girl despite her parents being on the cross-country excursion too.

MacD's 'driving lessons' with Carla had become so frequent that her mother suspected an intimate level of involvement. Mac was driving with Carla, yes - probably to a spot where they were undisturbed, lol.
Another thing which sounds like classic guy stuff to me was when Harrison told the investigators (FV, p 258) that MacDonald was doing some 'counseling' for the red-haired wife of a Special Forces sergeant who was having marital problems. Harrison probably had to suppress a grin when he put it like that. And I bet each of these 'counseling' sessions took about 45 minutes too ...

Since his induction in the Army on July 1, 1969, MacDonald had (per Fatal Vision) sexual relations with almost ten other women:
Mrs. Kingston, the sergeant's wife, 19-year-old Carla, then there were five women during his time in Fort Sam Houston in July/August 1969: a nurse, an unnamed other woman, an airline stewardess, a Swedish exchange student, and a woman named Mary. (FV, p 252-254)
Then there was Tina Carlucci in Dec 1969. If we add Mrs. Kane (not mentioned in FV), this makes ten.
Too bad for JMD that the thorough reinvestigators dug all this up and exposed his claim that he only had cheated "very very infrequently" on his wife as a flat-out lie. The grim truth was that he cheated on his wife whenever he had the opportunity.
Mac supporters like to bring up the "that he was a philanderer doesn't make him a murderer" argument. Of course it doesn't. That's not the point. The point is that MacDonald's claim that he was oh so happiliy married and that there was no big strain in that marriage was a lie. Colette would have had to be dumb, deaf and blind not to know that he was cheating on her almost non-stop. This must have hurt her terribly, and I do think it played a role in their argument on that fatal night.

[byn63]

Rash - I agree, Inmate likely had sex whenever and whereever the opportunity presented itself. Like the famous quote for the movie City Slickers "Women need a REASON to have sex, MEN just need a place".

In my opinion, Macliar exemplifies that premise..........

[Justthefacts]

Byn: MacDonald camp chatterboxes always make a big deal about the fact that their scant list of evidentiary items are unsourced. Well, for the heck of it, I'm going to give my opinion as to source:

THREE CANDLE WAX DRIPPINGS: The source of the wax dripping on the left slat of the coffee table was an old candle used by Colette. The 2 wax drippings in Kimberly's room were from 2 different birthday candles used to celebrate (shock!!) Kimberly's 5th birthday.

THREE SARAN FIBERS: The source of the fibers were 2 different dolls in Kristen's collection.

FIVE DARK WOOLEN FIBERS: There were 4 sources for these 5 fibers which included woolen clothing items worn by Colette, Kimberly, and/or Kristen.

THIRTY FINGERPRINTS: There were multiple sources for these prints which include Colette, Kimberly, Kristen, and several guests in the MacDonald home who were never printed by the CID.

ONE BODY HAIR, ONE PUBIC HAIR, AND ONE HAIR FRAGMENT: The body hair and the pubic hair were transferred from outside 544 Castle Drive and deposited in the apartment from the clothing and/or footwear of a MacDonald family member. The hair fragment was obtained during Kristen's visit to the farm or from playing inside 544 Castle Drive.

Justthefacts.

[byn63]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

........
ONE BODY HAIR, ONE PUBIC HAIR, AND ONE HAIR FRAGMENT: The body hair and the pubic hair were transferred from outside 544 Castle Drive and deposited in the apartment from the clothing and/or footwear of a MacDonald family member. The hair fragment was obtained during Kristen's visit to the farm or from playing inside 544 Castle Drive. Justthefacts.

JTF - I thought that the pubic hair WAS sourced. I could swear that I read someplace that the pubic hair was JRMs. I can't remember which document and I don't have all of my notes available here - but, I'm sure I read it on CMs site. Trust me, if I believe I read it, then the odds are that I did!

[Justthefacts]

Byn: Michael Malone's 1990 hair analysis identified a pubic hair found under Colette's body as being Jeffrey MacDonald's. The AFIP's DNA test results, however, deemed this pubic hair as being unsourced. From what I've read, Malone's conclusions are not unusual when it comes to microscopic hair comparisons. Hair experts will tell you that hairs from two different people can appear identical under a microscope. When all is said and done, the analysis of the pubic hair was the only mistake that Malone made in his 1990 analysis of the trace evidence in this case.

Justthefacts.

[byn63]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

Byn: Michael Malone's 1990 hair analysis identified a pubic hair found under Colette's body as being Jeffrey MacDonald's. The AFIP's DNA test results, however, deemed this pubic hair as being unsourced. From what I've read, Malone's conclusions are not unusual when it comes to microscopic hair comparisons. Hair experts will tell you that hairs from two different people can appear identical under a microscope. When all is said and done, the analysis of the pubic hair was the only mistake that Malone made in his 1990 analysis of the trace evidence in this case. Justthefacts.

OK - I KNEW I had read the data someplace! Of course, finding an unsourced pubic hair in and around Macliar's person, office or home is not at all surprising to me. Personally, it just points out the fact that Inmate tomcatted around at every opportunity. So, combine that fact with the Transfer Theory of Locard and it is actually surprising that only 1 unsourced pubic hair was located.

[Justthefacts]

Byn: The whole unidentified argument is such nonsense. Think about the following scenario.

SCENARIO: There is a vicious, and I mean vicious, fight which involves Colette defending herself in 2 different rooms. She has scratched, pulled, and lashed out with a hairbrush and/or a club. There is blood spatter in both rooms, a broken hair ribbon, crushed head hairs, multiple blunt trauma injuries, and multiple stab wounds from 2 different weapons. There must be multiple head hairs from known intruders, right? Ahhh, no. There must be multiple body and/or limb hairs from known intruders, right? Ahhh, no. Three, and only 3 unsourced hairs, are found in that tiny apartment after all that carnage. The MacDonald camp's claims of forensic significance are flat-out absurd.

Justthefacts.

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by byn63

OK - I KNEW I had read the data someplace! Of course, finding an unsourced pubic hair in and around Macliar's person, office or home is not at all surprising to me. Personally, it just points out the fact that Inmate tomcatted around at every opportunity. So, combine that fact with the Transfer Theory of Locard and it is actually surprising that only 1 unsourced pubic hair was located.

ITA with you Byn: the far more probable explanation is that the Transfer of Locard occurred via the philanderer MacDonald.
Does anyone know if the pubic hair could be analyzed in terms of being from a male or a female person?

[byn63]

Originally Posted by rashomon

ITA with you Byn: the far more probable explanation is that the Transfer of Locard occurred via the philanderer MacDonald.
Does anyone know if the pubic hair could be analyzed in terms of being from a male or a female person?

Hey Rashomon - that is a good question. To my understanding, DNA testing should be able to tell us gender of the donor of that pubic hair. Now, I am confused at the moment because the DNA testing report does not give us that information. So, now I am wondering if I am incorrect about DNA being able to determine male/female. More research for me now.........................

[byn63]

Originally Posted by Justthefacts

Byn: The whole unidentified argument is such nonsense. Think about the following scenario.

SCENARIO: There is a vicious, and I mean vicious, fight which involves Colette defending herself in 2 different rooms. She has scratched, pulled, and lashed out with a hairbrush and/or a club. There is blood spatter in both rooms, a broken hair ribbon, crushed head hairs, multiple blunt trauma injuries, and multiple stab wounds from 2 different weapons. There must be multiple head hairs from known intruders, right? Ahhh, no. There must be multiple body and/or limb hairs from known intruders, right? Ahhh, no. Three, and only 3 unsourced hairs, are found in that tiny apartment after all that carnage. The MacDonald camp's claims of forensic significance are flat-out absurd.

Justthefacts.

I am in 100% agreement with you JTF. Now, if we could get macalites to "see the light". Can't you picture KM smacking her forhead and saying "Wow, I could've had a V-8"? Except her words would be more like "Wow, I had know idea how many hairs and fibers we transport every day"

[Justthefacts]

Byn: The V-8 crowd also ignores the fact that ALL of the evidence pointing to Colette and Kristen defending themselves, includes their boy via fiber, wood, blood, and hair evidence.

1) Colette's bloody head entwined with a bloody pajama seam thread found on the multi-colored bedspread.

2) Fifteen entwined fibers found under the rug at Colette's feet. Jeff's pajama top pocket is found on the flipped up portion of that rug and the 15 fibers consist of 7 pajama fibers and 8 rug fibers.

3) A pajama fiber is found under Kristen's fingernail.

4) Jeff's limb hair along with a splinter form the club is found in the left palm of Colette.

5) Ten blood stains from Colette were found on Jeff's pajama top before it was torn. This included a stain on the left pajama cuff, left sleeve, left shoulder, left front seam, and 6 stains on the pajama top pocket.

Notice how I didn't include the unsourced hair fragment listed as being found under Kristen's fingernail as evidence of Kristen struggling with an intruder. That is due to the fact that there is no corroborating document indicating that the hair fragment was found under Kristen's fingernail. Glisson's lab note remains the only document that lists this hair being found under Kristen's fingernail. In addition, there is no evidence indicating that this hair fragment was forcibly removed.

Justthefacts.